Recent TWOP Comments
Jul. 3rd, 2009 09:21 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
acampbellDiscussion at TWOP has been pretty slow and sparse lately, at least for me. That's because nearly all the characters and all the relationships in SV that I was invested in have disappeared. I've even taking to reading back episode threads from earlier seasons to feed my craving.
I've made no secret of the fact that I'm not the biggest Chloe fan. As with Clark and Lex, I like the Chloe of the early days and the cooler Chloe of fanfic and in my head, more than the character as she's evolved over the past few seasons. I knew I was asking for it, but I couldn't resist jumping into a discussion on: how DARE they photoshop (and they DO seem to be big on the photoshopping lately--could that be because TW no longer puts himself within 100 miles of any kind of promotional photography?) ED into a promo photo of Clark & Chloe--right in the middle--thereby conferring "leading lady" status on Lois and swiping it from Chloe?
I said:
'I agree that shoving ED in between Clark & Chloe is a cheap shot, but seems to me there's a question being begged, namely, Chloe being the "leading lady" of the show. Admitted, she's wildly popular in fandom, but I never considered her the "leading lady" and likely never will. I realize many fans do, and granted, they've done a p**s poor job of establishing Lois Lane in her (rightful) role, but I'd consider her more the current "leading lady" than Chloe. Popularity in fandom does not a leading lady make.
And before Lois, it was Lana. Now, Lana I hated with well-nigh unmitigated fury, but she was definitely established as the "leading lady" from the beginning, not to mention allowed to retain that status for far longer than she should have.'
The Discussion continued there and was moved to the All Seasons thread with various posters. Largely cordial, although the discussion that stayed in the Media thread remained more objective and fact-based.
'I guess, then, I'll modify my contention to observe that unless there are established and generally > universally accepted criteria that denote the status of "leading lady," (and maybe there are--as mentioned above, length of tenure on series? Number of eps appearing in? amount of screen time per season? hero's love interest?), whether or not an actress is the "leading lady" of a show can be considered largely a matter of opinion. EVeryone's MMV, of course. I lean toward agreeing with the comment above that Chloe is more a "lead supporting actress" than a "leading lady."'
Carcassi had said:
I've never heard any AM/Chloe fan cite "popularity" as the reason AM should be considered SV's leading lady.
Nor have I, but I suggest that still could be a contributing factor to the claims that she is.
'Personally, at this point, and FWIW, I consider Lex Luthor the "hero" of the show...whether or not he's still on it!'
I wish I liked Chloe better than I do (or, maybe I should reconsider that, considering this past season. I remember the pain I endured in the latter part of S6 and into S7 with the bashing around and emasculation of Lex and the trashing of Clark's moral character--and I do believe the Chloe fans had it many times worse.) I've done 2-3 Chloe-centric fics, and have found that the only way I can write her is a) by pairing her with Lex, or b) flip-flopping her characterization so she's very unlike herself, as in Walnut Street. The one time I tried to write Chlark it darn-near sucked. And I wish I could write that pairing, as I don't dislike it--but it's still not my 'ship, unless we're talking late S1 Chlark. That, I loved.
That story was 1959, everyone in the comics were like that. I recall one story about Lana and Lois getting powers and using them to fight each other over who got to be with Superman. Man, the Silver Age was LAME.
So I had to get on my Silver-Age high horse:
'My lifelong love for Supes was born with Silver Age comics--I know a lot of them look silly nowadays, but I still love them. The coolest thing was that readers were very into the text. If the writers screwed up, they'd call 'em on it in the "Letters" columns, and the writers would either admit it or give some sort of comical answer that indicated they knew they'd made a mistake.
I even still have the story you mention. It's called: "The Battle Between Super-Lois and Super-Lana".
Comics nowadays just don't have enough dialogue to satisfy me. But those did.
Yeah, they were kind of sexist, from a millenial viewpoint, and Lois definitely could be a twit. But she was fun, clever, ambitious and resourceful. Not that bad a role model for kids, IMO.'
Today, I got into a surprisingly cordial version of a conversation I've had many times before: why doesn't TW do more promotion for SV?
It started in the Spoilers thread:
But, if that's the case then WHY sign back on for more years?
Because he's a private person and he doesn't want to?
I took the discussion to the TW thread.
'I've tried often to put myself in TW's place and imagine what's going on in his mind. Now, I can certainly understand his dislike of interviews & interviewers, and as I mentioned over in the Spoilers thread, who could blame any of the cast for not extolling the greatness of the show at this point? Despite this, my personal feelings are that when you choose a career as a television/film actor, celebrity is part of the job and you have to expect to get and respond to public and media attention (as fans are what make a genuine "star", after all). I've often marveled at how successful TW is at avoiding the media, while at the same time wishing we could see more of him.
I get the feeling that, yes, he's in it for the money, and also because maybe he doesn't know what else to pursue at this point in his life. He's been on the show since 2001 and from what I've read, is treated uber-specially on set. He doesn't make himself generally and genuinely visible in the media so perhaps that's at least part of the reason he isn't inundated with other film/acting offers (though I suppose he could be and we just don't hear about it). His clear dislike and avoidance of practically all media attention is unusual for a TV/film actor and it always seemed likely that it's a profession he "fell into" due to his appearance rather than genuinely craved (cf. MR)--and by saying that, I don't mean to imply that he hasn't done a fine job on SV and the few film roles he's had. I remember reading that he was an "average" student and decided after graduation that college wasn't for him, so his highest level of education is a high school diploma--which is respectable but in today's job market...I don't recall reading anything about another trade or occupation in which he had enough interest to pursue. I think I read that he decided modeling wasn't for him, though he still seems to do the occasional shoot. It's pretty obvious he's interested in directing, but I'm interested in seeing how effective his experience directing on SV will be in getting him other directing gigs beyond in his own series?
There's construction work, in which he was engaged when he was "discovered" and recommended a modeling career, but I'm sure he's made enough $$ that he wouldn't need to go back to that, unless he truly loved the work. Were I him, I'd be tempted to invest the bulk of my earnings from SV and relax and live a nice, comfortable life with my friends & family from then on. He could be figuring: one more year's (or however long he signs for) income in a safe spot and from a known quantity, will make something like that, that much easier.'
He did the surprise appearance at a convention once, back in Season 3, I think, and had a rather unpleasant stalker fan experience. I doubt he's going to do that again.
FWIW, an LJ friend of mine [you,dawnybee] who was actually at that con said that the "stalker" account (posted on fandom_wank) was an extreme exaggeration--that it was really a very minor, largely benevolent exchange between Tom and a VERY young fan, and that when he and SJIII bolted out, it was because they had to catch a flight, not because he was creeped out by the girl's proposal.
FuzzyPink, a new poster whom I often disagree with, replied:
The thing is, how did Tom see it? It may not have looked like a big deal from the outside, but no one knows how he felt about it himself. He also handled himself well enough in the infamous Rolling Stone article, but he wasn't happy about it afterwards. Just because someone acts like a professional doesn't mean they aren't bothered by something and haven't been negatively affected by it.
Me:
That's a question I doubt can be answered because if he ever expressed a reaction to or opinion on the incident, if incident in fact there was, I've not seen it. If anyone has, perhaps they'd point us in the direction.
SteveWright suggested:
Which is why I think if he had the interviewer send him the questions first he can respond in an email. This way he vets out any questions he doesn't want to answer and can control the interview.
Me:
'When I read that comment by Craig that TW agreed to do the Season Companion interview and then backed out because he just couldn't bring himself to do it, I wondered whether he'd ever considered addressing that concern with some coping technique training or even some mild therapy, because generally most people who choose careers in entertainment aren't THAT publicity-and-interview-shy, are they? Except for Garbo, maybe...:)
He was quoted once as saying that he disliked doing interviews because what he said in the interviews always got twisted around. Which I'd say is customary in most celebrity interviews but I would hazard that numerous > most stars develop interview skills along the way and/or are coached in how to field manage, and deflect, when necessary, too-personal queries.
Because I would suppose that an interview for a book like the season companion, as opposed to one on a tv show or at a con where you're more or less "on the spot" in front of hundreds of people and have to answer fast and concisely, would be fairly easy to manage, and couldn't TW ask the interviewer afterward to tailor the results to whatever he would feel comfortable with? I'm not familiar with the actual process, but I can't imagine his wishes not being respected in such a case.
We may all ultimately have to agree to disagree because I've had this discussion numerous times during my years in SV fandom (and it's a touchy subject because it's a challenge to discuss TW's methods and apparent choices without sounding as though one is criticizing), and there've always been fans who think that however TW chooses to conduct himself is a-ok (i.e., all he owes fans of the show is showing up to work), and then others who believe that promotional/public activity is also part of the job and are disappointed that he doesn't do more of it, for whatever reason.'
FP said:
Oh, trust me, I'm disappointed he doesn't. But I also fall into the category of thinking he doesn't owe me personally as a fan to put himself into situations he isn't comfortable with just so I can drool over how hot he is. :) Then, I feel that way about celebrities in general not just Tom.
I said:
'Understood. :) It does tend to be rather an emotional subject, and I've found in the past, after being roundly castigated for expressing my views, that as long as one takes care in the phrasing of one's opinion (i.e., "I wish he would" rather than "he should," etc.) it's easier to navigate the minefield and avoid the rotten tomatoes.'
SteveWright jumped back in:
'I feel that he does OWE the fans an interview every now and then. Nothing wrong with that, IMO. We are the ones that make his lifestyle possible. We are the ones that buy the DVD's, watch the show, and go see a movie just because he's in it even though it stars that chick from LOST who fucked her brother.
I like Tom..a lot. I have a lot of respect for how he conducts himself professionally, and I have respect for Tom wanting to keep his life private. I just feel that answering a few questions given to him in an email isn't a crime and is not asking too much.
If the man has a crippling phobia about interviews then that's another story, but this is the first I've heard that he was afraid to do the interview with Craig (but, I don't go to the site anymore because of the recent change in tone of the posters).'
BatmanBeatles wondered:
When did Craig say this?
So do I, but I've been stunned at how vitriolic people can get when they perceive their idol is being criticized. :)
IMHO, if he'd just do a little something now and then, by email, in print, or whatever, just SOMETHING for SV fandom, we'd all be content.
BatmanBeatles:
When did Craig say this?
Me:
'It was somewhere here on TWOP, IIRC, shortly before the S6 or the S7 Companion went to press. Maybe someone can find it?'
That 'someone' shortly turned out to be ME!
'The Search Gods were with me on this one!:
KsiteCraig500 posted in the DVD/Merchandise thread (p. 51), on Jan. 25, 2008, when the S6 Companion was in the works:
I've realized I haven't posted about how the trip up north went. Well, most interestingly, I almost got Tom for this one. He said he'd do an interview, intended to do it, but (as I understand it from some other cast and crew who work with him often) in the end, he just couldn't face it. I think he just gets anxiety about the whole interview thing... while I'm still upset about what happened with the previous books, I'm thinking maybe it was his management's fault back then. I FINALLY got to meet him briefly and he was nice to me then; of course he was in a good mood. I wish there was a way for him to know I'm a nice interviewer, but he doesn't know me like the others seem to... not his fault.
Me:
'Not sure "what happened with the previous books," though. Maybe someone else remembers?
And just for the record, after the S6 book shipped, Craig posted on March 4, 2008:
Here's the list of people who talked and did interviews for that one: Alfred Gough, Miles Millar, Ken Horton, Tim Scanlan, Mat Beck, Annette O'Toole, John Glover, Michael Rosenbaum, Allison Mack, Erica Durance, Phil Morris, Aaron Ashmore, Justin Hartley, Jeannot Szwarc, James Philpott, Caroline Cranstoun, Amber McDonald, Alan Ritchson, Lee Thompson Young, Kyle Gallner, Holly Harold, Brian Peterson, Kelly Souders, Todd Slavkin, Darren Swimmer, Al Septien, Turi Meyer, Tracy A. Bellomo, Mark Warshaw, Chris Freyer, and Steve DeKnight. The Foreword is by Justin and I think it's hilarious.
Me:
'It's just a bit of a disappointment to me that practically everyone was willing to talk about the show EXCEPT the main character/star! I'd so much rather see TW doing the Foreword than Justin Hartley. But then, I object to GreenArrowVille in any shape or form. Still, through no fault of Craig's, the bulk of the content in the S6 Companion (subtitled: "Let us bash Lex and Worship Lana") makes me wanna spit nails, or, better, punch writers, producers, TPTB, etc.'
I've made no secret of the fact that I'm not the biggest Chloe fan. As with Clark and Lex, I like the Chloe of the early days and the cooler Chloe of fanfic and in my head, more than the character as she's evolved over the past few seasons. I knew I was asking for it, but I couldn't resist jumping into a discussion on: how DARE they photoshop (and they DO seem to be big on the photoshopping lately--could that be because TW no longer puts himself within 100 miles of any kind of promotional photography?) ED into a promo photo of Clark & Chloe--right in the middle--thereby conferring "leading lady" status on Lois and swiping it from Chloe?
I said:
'I agree that shoving ED in between Clark & Chloe is a cheap shot, but seems to me there's a question being begged, namely, Chloe being the "leading lady" of the show. Admitted, she's wildly popular in fandom, but I never considered her the "leading lady" and likely never will. I realize many fans do, and granted, they've done a p**s poor job of establishing Lois Lane in her (rightful) role, but I'd consider her more the current "leading lady" than Chloe. Popularity in fandom does not a leading lady make.
And before Lois, it was Lana. Now, Lana I hated with well-nigh unmitigated fury, but she was definitely established as the "leading lady" from the beginning, not to mention allowed to retain that status for far longer than she should have.'
The Discussion continued there and was moved to the All Seasons thread with various posters. Largely cordial, although the discussion that stayed in the Media thread remained more objective and fact-based.
'I guess, then, I'll modify my contention to observe that unless there are established and generally > universally accepted criteria that denote the status of "leading lady," (and maybe there are--as mentioned above, length of tenure on series? Number of eps appearing in? amount of screen time per season? hero's love interest?), whether or not an actress is the "leading lady" of a show can be considered largely a matter of opinion. EVeryone's MMV, of course. I lean toward agreeing with the comment above that Chloe is more a "lead supporting actress" than a "leading lady."'
Carcassi had said:
I've never heard any AM/Chloe fan cite "popularity" as the reason AM should be considered SV's leading lady.
Nor have I, but I suggest that still could be a contributing factor to the claims that she is.
'Personally, at this point, and FWIW, I consider Lex Luthor the "hero" of the show...whether or not he's still on it!'
I wish I liked Chloe better than I do (or, maybe I should reconsider that, considering this past season. I remember the pain I endured in the latter part of S6 and into S7 with the bashing around and emasculation of Lex and the trashing of Clark's moral character--and I do believe the Chloe fans had it many times worse.) I've done 2-3 Chloe-centric fics, and have found that the only way I can write her is a) by pairing her with Lex, or b) flip-flopping her characterization so she's very unlike herself, as in Walnut Street. The one time I tried to write Chlark it darn-near sucked. And I wish I could write that pairing, as I don't dislike it--but it's still not my 'ship, unless we're talking late S1 Chlark. That, I loved.
That story was 1959, everyone in the comics were like that. I recall one story about Lana and Lois getting powers and using them to fight each other over who got to be with Superman. Man, the Silver Age was LAME.
So I had to get on my Silver-Age high horse:
'My lifelong love for Supes was born with Silver Age comics--I know a lot of them look silly nowadays, but I still love them. The coolest thing was that readers were very into the text. If the writers screwed up, they'd call 'em on it in the "Letters" columns, and the writers would either admit it or give some sort of comical answer that indicated they knew they'd made a mistake.
I even still have the story you mention. It's called: "The Battle Between Super-Lois and Super-Lana".
Comics nowadays just don't have enough dialogue to satisfy me. But those did.
Yeah, they were kind of sexist, from a millenial viewpoint, and Lois definitely could be a twit. But she was fun, clever, ambitious and resourceful. Not that bad a role model for kids, IMO.'
Today, I got into a surprisingly cordial version of a conversation I've had many times before: why doesn't TW do more promotion for SV?
It started in the Spoilers thread:
But, if that's the case then WHY sign back on for more years?
Because he's a private person and he doesn't want to?
I took the discussion to the TW thread.
'I've tried often to put myself in TW's place and imagine what's going on in his mind. Now, I can certainly understand his dislike of interviews & interviewers, and as I mentioned over in the Spoilers thread, who could blame any of the cast for not extolling the greatness of the show at this point? Despite this, my personal feelings are that when you choose a career as a television/film actor, celebrity is part of the job and you have to expect to get and respond to public and media attention (as fans are what make a genuine "star", after all). I've often marveled at how successful TW is at avoiding the media, while at the same time wishing we could see more of him.
I get the feeling that, yes, he's in it for the money, and also because maybe he doesn't know what else to pursue at this point in his life. He's been on the show since 2001 and from what I've read, is treated uber-specially on set. He doesn't make himself generally and genuinely visible in the media so perhaps that's at least part of the reason he isn't inundated with other film/acting offers (though I suppose he could be and we just don't hear about it). His clear dislike and avoidance of practically all media attention is unusual for a TV/film actor and it always seemed likely that it's a profession he "fell into" due to his appearance rather than genuinely craved (cf. MR)--and by saying that, I don't mean to imply that he hasn't done a fine job on SV and the few film roles he's had. I remember reading that he was an "average" student and decided after graduation that college wasn't for him, so his highest level of education is a high school diploma--which is respectable but in today's job market...I don't recall reading anything about another trade or occupation in which he had enough interest to pursue. I think I read that he decided modeling wasn't for him, though he still seems to do the occasional shoot. It's pretty obvious he's interested in directing, but I'm interested in seeing how effective his experience directing on SV will be in getting him other directing gigs beyond in his own series?
There's construction work, in which he was engaged when he was "discovered" and recommended a modeling career, but I'm sure he's made enough $$ that he wouldn't need to go back to that, unless he truly loved the work. Were I him, I'd be tempted to invest the bulk of my earnings from SV and relax and live a nice, comfortable life with my friends & family from then on. He could be figuring: one more year's (or however long he signs for) income in a safe spot and from a known quantity, will make something like that, that much easier.'
He did the surprise appearance at a convention once, back in Season 3, I think, and had a rather unpleasant stalker fan experience. I doubt he's going to do that again.
FWIW, an LJ friend of mine [you,
dawnybee] who was actually at that con said that the "stalker" account (posted on fandom_wank) was an extreme exaggeration--that it was really a very minor, largely benevolent exchange between Tom and a VERY young fan, and that when he and SJIII bolted out, it was because they had to catch a flight, not because he was creeped out by the girl's proposal. FuzzyPink, a new poster whom I often disagree with, replied:
The thing is, how did Tom see it? It may not have looked like a big deal from the outside, but no one knows how he felt about it himself. He also handled himself well enough in the infamous Rolling Stone article, but he wasn't happy about it afterwards. Just because someone acts like a professional doesn't mean they aren't bothered by something and haven't been negatively affected by it.
Me:
That's a question I doubt can be answered because if he ever expressed a reaction to or opinion on the incident, if incident in fact there was, I've not seen it. If anyone has, perhaps they'd point us in the direction.
SteveWright suggested:
Which is why I think if he had the interviewer send him the questions first he can respond in an email. This way he vets out any questions he doesn't want to answer and can control the interview.
Me:
'When I read that comment by Craig that TW agreed to do the Season Companion interview and then backed out because he just couldn't bring himself to do it, I wondered whether he'd ever considered addressing that concern with some coping technique training or even some mild therapy, because generally most people who choose careers in entertainment aren't THAT publicity-and-interview-shy, are they? Except for Garbo, maybe...:)
He was quoted once as saying that he disliked doing interviews because what he said in the interviews always got twisted around. Which I'd say is customary in most celebrity interviews but I would hazard that numerous > most stars develop interview skills along the way and/or are coached in how to field manage, and deflect, when necessary, too-personal queries.
Because I would suppose that an interview for a book like the season companion, as opposed to one on a tv show or at a con where you're more or less "on the spot" in front of hundreds of people and have to answer fast and concisely, would be fairly easy to manage, and couldn't TW ask the interviewer afterward to tailor the results to whatever he would feel comfortable with? I'm not familiar with the actual process, but I can't imagine his wishes not being respected in such a case.
We may all ultimately have to agree to disagree because I've had this discussion numerous times during my years in SV fandom (and it's a touchy subject because it's a challenge to discuss TW's methods and apparent choices without sounding as though one is criticizing), and there've always been fans who think that however TW chooses to conduct himself is a-ok (i.e., all he owes fans of the show is showing up to work), and then others who believe that promotional/public activity is also part of the job and are disappointed that he doesn't do more of it, for whatever reason.'
FP said:
Oh, trust me, I'm disappointed he doesn't. But I also fall into the category of thinking he doesn't owe me personally as a fan to put himself into situations he isn't comfortable with just so I can drool over how hot he is. :) Then, I feel that way about celebrities in general not just Tom.
I said:
'Understood. :) It does tend to be rather an emotional subject, and I've found in the past, after being roundly castigated for expressing my views, that as long as one takes care in the phrasing of one's opinion (i.e., "I wish he would" rather than "he should," etc.) it's easier to navigate the minefield and avoid the rotten tomatoes.'
SteveWright jumped back in:
'I feel that he does OWE the fans an interview every now and then. Nothing wrong with that, IMO. We are the ones that make his lifestyle possible. We are the ones that buy the DVD's, watch the show, and go see a movie just because he's in it even though it stars that chick from LOST who fucked her brother.
I like Tom..a lot. I have a lot of respect for how he conducts himself professionally, and I have respect for Tom wanting to keep his life private. I just feel that answering a few questions given to him in an email isn't a crime and is not asking too much.
If the man has a crippling phobia about interviews then that's another story, but this is the first I've heard that he was afraid to do the interview with Craig (but, I don't go to the site anymore because of the recent change in tone of the posters).'
BatmanBeatles wondered:
When did Craig say this?
So do I, but I've been stunned at how vitriolic people can get when they perceive their idol is being criticized. :)
IMHO, if he'd just do a little something now and then, by email, in print, or whatever, just SOMETHING for SV fandom, we'd all be content.
BatmanBeatles:
When did Craig say this?
Me:
'It was somewhere here on TWOP, IIRC, shortly before the S6 or the S7 Companion went to press. Maybe someone can find it?'
That 'someone' shortly turned out to be ME!
'The Search Gods were with me on this one!:
KsiteCraig500 posted in the DVD/Merchandise thread (p. 51), on Jan. 25, 2008, when the S6 Companion was in the works:
I've realized I haven't posted about how the trip up north went. Well, most interestingly, I almost got Tom for this one. He said he'd do an interview, intended to do it, but (as I understand it from some other cast and crew who work with him often) in the end, he just couldn't face it. I think he just gets anxiety about the whole interview thing... while I'm still upset about what happened with the previous books, I'm thinking maybe it was his management's fault back then. I FINALLY got to meet him briefly and he was nice to me then; of course he was in a good mood. I wish there was a way for him to know I'm a nice interviewer, but he doesn't know me like the others seem to... not his fault.
Me:
'Not sure "what happened with the previous books," though. Maybe someone else remembers?
And just for the record, after the S6 book shipped, Craig posted on March 4, 2008:
Here's the list of people who talked and did interviews for that one: Alfred Gough, Miles Millar, Ken Horton, Tim Scanlan, Mat Beck, Annette O'Toole, John Glover, Michael Rosenbaum, Allison Mack, Erica Durance, Phil Morris, Aaron Ashmore, Justin Hartley, Jeannot Szwarc, James Philpott, Caroline Cranstoun, Amber McDonald, Alan Ritchson, Lee Thompson Young, Kyle Gallner, Holly Harold, Brian Peterson, Kelly Souders, Todd Slavkin, Darren Swimmer, Al Septien, Turi Meyer, Tracy A. Bellomo, Mark Warshaw, Chris Freyer, and Steve DeKnight. The Foreword is by Justin and I think it's hilarious.
Me:
'It's just a bit of a disappointment to me that practically everyone was willing to talk about the show EXCEPT the main character/star! I'd so much rather see TW doing the Foreword than Justin Hartley. But then, I object to GreenArrowVille in any shape or form. Still, through no fault of Craig's, the bulk of the content in the S6 Companion (subtitled: "Let us bash Lex and Worship Lana") makes me wanna spit nails, or, better, punch writers, producers, TPTB, etc.'
